Most Recently Asked                     Still Awaiting Answers

Diaryland

Would You Like to Leave an Answer?

Read this if you're new (or bored...).

2005-04-23 - 7:54 p.m.

How it turned out

OK, people, here is the result of my paper on men and feminism...
Now, bear in mind I'll have to rearrange this a little to add more references to the theory, but here's what I've got. Feedback is wonderful!

-----------------

Dude! Feminism!
An Unscientific Survey of Men’s Views

What are your thoughts on feminism? I interviewed 25 men – some I know personally, others I’ve never met. They came from as close by as Philadelphia and New York, and from as far away as Germany, England, Canada, and Australia. I asked them a series of nine questions, giving them the opportunity to elaborate on anything they wanted. Interviews were conducted via AOL Instant Messenger, LiveJournal, and the forums at www.sluggy.net.

So what is a feminist? I asked these men to name the first word that comes to mind, and a mixed impression came into being: A loud, vocal activist, “usually particularly derisive in [her] views on men,” (MageFire23) who is an “advocate and bitch at the same time,” (Confused1983). She is radical (Hollowgraham and Rysto) and strong (NCFlyer3753 and Richard). She is definitely a woman: most of the men interviewed named “woman” as the first word that came to mind (Ruan and Robot_Ron), used the word “woman” in a descriptive phrase (five different men), or used terms generally considered female: “Bitch” (Confused1983), “Feminazi” (Salamander), “Lesbian” (Swingerzetta). Some men showed their hesitation from the beginning: in addition to “Feminazi,” answers included, “someone who spells women as womyn, and will hate me because I have a penis” (Morand), “Angry” (AxelFendersson), “Angst” (Crake), “Over-aggressive” (JonMW), and “EVIL [sic]” (Treesrule14). Other men seemed more supportive: NCFlyer3753 described “a strong, progressive woman,” ScandiaMaxie noted that “the first word that pops into my mind is assertive,” and Arcosh cited “Emancipation.”

The men interviewed who knew me personally tended to use me as an example, citing my personal views, or naming me their favorite feminist. Airedale260 started the trend: when asked what word first came to mind, he said, “You.”

In “The Vagina Monologues,” Eve Ensler asked women to describe what their vaginas would wear or say. I gave the men interviewed a somewhat easier question, which prompted both insight and humor. “If feminism was a food, what would it taste like?”

FreeTheKickball9 could not resist the bait, and immediately answered, “Fish.” angrysunbird (no capitalization at his request), answered similarly, though with more tact: “It would be a fresh tuna salad.” Drachefly summed this theme up more bluntly, though his answer left the realm of food: “If I just think for a taste, I just think of variations on 'woman'.” JonMW’s answer did not stray too far, though his answer was a bit more symbolic: “Sushi, I think. It's not nearly as bad as the uneducated mob makes it out to be.”

Several other men also picked symbolic flavors or foods. Spicy was the answer three times (Morand, CdtMcCarthy05, NCFlyer3753), and bitter or bittersweet was mentioned twice (Mooney, ScandiaMaxie). Confused1983 compared feminism to wine: “Hard to take at first, but becomes an acquired taste if you give it the time.” Magefire23 noted a perceived shelf life to feminism, citing “orange juice left out too long: sweet at first, though tangy, but you can tell it's going sour.” He was joined by Salamander, who thought of “moldy mozzarella: once something very important, now, due to age, it just leaves a bad taste.”

Crake thought of “shrimp. It can be good or bad depending on how it is served.” Rysto continued this type of metaphor, with “hamburgers. There's [sic] a lot of really good ones out there, but the ones that get all of the publicity are crappy ones that leave a bad taste in your mouth.”

In an example of perhaps unintended Biblical reference, both Cigaretteroutine and PaRadish5 thought of apples; neither offered elaboration.

PaRadish5 summed up the most common reaction to this question: “Also, the hell?” It was definitely considered an odd question (Swingerzetta, Drachefly, Crake).

Drachefly continued his earlier answer of “woman” with an answer from a slightly different direction: “If you were starting a religion on the subject you could decide you needed ritual symbolic foods. In that case I guess you could pick milk.”

Every cause steps on a few toes, whether by accident or design. I asked the men I interviewed to tell me about a time they came into conflict with feminism. Some were brief: a professor with whom they butted heads (Airedale260, FreeTheKickball9, CdtMcCarthy05, Richard, Hollowgraham); ScandiaMaxie’s version of this answer was a little different than that of the other men:

“I once had a feminist teacher, and she weren’t [sic] very nice to the boys in the class, and giving [sic] extra attention to the girls. When she found out I was gay, and she started to treat me like one of the girls, that put off the guys to me. It was like a battlefield in that class."

A few men also complained about being chastised for politeness: PaRadish5 recalled, “I once held a door open for a woman coming out of a store and she gave me a dirty look -- like, what do you think, I couldn't open the door?”

Crake agreed: “Well I am a fairly polite person. So when I’m near a door and someone is going in or out of it I will hold it open for them [sic]. One time I held a door open for a woman at a bookstore. She apparently thought I was patronizing her or something, because she sneered, ‘I don't need your help’ and made a show of going across to the other door. Just that one minor incident.”

Ruan elaborated a bit: “The ‘I do it myself’ attitude -- I've run into this several times. I'm a naturally chivalrous type, I like to help people out, be they man or woman. Everyone gets special treatment, not just women. Granted, I tend to be more courteous to women, but then again, that's the way that I was raised. Gallantry is automatic for me, likely because of how many fantasy novels I've read; it's in my brain and I can't get it out.”

Another common conflict several men cited was a feeling of being blamed just by virtue of being male.

Magefire23 recalled, “The biggest conflict I’ve had with feminism came with another of the Smith Scholars here at Witt. She outright thought that any sort of situation in which a man might happen to be in a position of power above a women was outright blasphemy, and that the situations should be reversed across the board. Naturally, while I think myself to be a fair and equitable person, I disagreed. Apparently this made me the worst of the lot in her eyes.”

Morand agreed: “I've seen the real hardcore feminists, they were protesting on campus one day. I don't remember why. I just remember having to walk through them and being yelled at. Also, I've read some feminism literature, and I find it almost to be racist in the hatred I saw. Very, very anti man. Full of lots of womyn superiority. It was incredibly offensive.”

JonMW had a similar response: “Basically whenever I see graffiti that says, ‘I hate all boys’ or meet one of the subgroup I call "Feminazis". They have a lot of needless rage, and pit it against about 50% of the world’s population. They seem to think that they can fix hurt by hurting others, or they never heard of ‘If it ain't broke, don't fix it’ by the way that they behave where there isn't blatant discrimination.”

Ruan answered likewise: “One of the problems I definitely have with feminism is the attitude that it's ALL men that are the problem. It's just as bad a stereotype as they are trying to get away from themselves. Something that definitely annoys me, and this I have experienced personally, is how some feminists look down at ‘stay at home moms,’ those who rely on their husbands for income, etc. They don't seem to understand that some women are happy in those instances.”

Salamander also felt attacked: “The only real conflict I've had with feminism was it being used against me in a debate. I was trying to debate abortion, and I was told, very rudely, that only women had the right to discuss abortion because abortion was an issue that only applied to them. It wasn't something that men had a right to debate.”
At the same time, a number of men felt they had never had a conflict with feminism (NCFlyer3753, Swingerzetta, Rysto, AxelFendersson, Drachefly, angrysunbird, Robot_Ron).

I followed this question with a more upbeat one, asking what the men respected about feminism. Only Treesrule14 could not think of anything, saying “There is nothing to respect about feminism anymore, it doesn’t need to exist anymore.”
While a few added the caveat that extremism is a bad thing (Morand, Cigaretteroutine, Richard), most found quite a bit to respect in feminism, though more than one seemed to consider the most respectable aspects to be those of the past, or, as FreeTheKickball9 put it, “The history.”

Cigaretteroutine’s thoughts were “that at this point, the feminist movement seems to be just another democrat lobby group,” though he respects “the original idea of the movement...the whole...get women respect thing.”

Salamander, Mooney, Richard, Rysto, and AxelFendersson all respected the gains feminism has made, appearing to have something of a “mission-accomplished” attitude. Treesrule14 is very blunt about this point, as mentioned above. angrysunbird summed up the combined attitude of admiration and obsolescence by saying, “I respect the feminists that have to really fight in more patriarchal societies (as in our past or less enlightened countries today). It must be daunting to take on a whole society.”

Another common theme, and one that seems to contradict the theme of hostility in the previous question, is admiration for feminism’s tactics. “It's not retaliatory.... as opposed to just attacking other viewpoints, it proves them wrong by actively working against those opposing viewpoints,” noted NCFlyer3753. Rysto and JonMW agreed.

PaRadish5 noted, “They raise issues that make people uncomfortable, which is usually when you're doing something right. There are a lot of inequalities out there that are not going to get resolved unless a critical mass of people become aware of them. Starting that process of making people aware is always hard.” Hollowgraham answered similarly.

I was flattered to find that several men I interviewed considered me their favorite feminist (Airedale260, Confused1983, Morand, PaRadish5, Richard), though these were people I know personally. While Morand justified his answer (“Your [sic] honest about views, don't try to force them upon others, and don't spread hated.”), PaRadish5 and Richard professed ignorance, PaRadish5 putting it best by saying, “I don't know a hell of a lot of feminists, and I haven't read many (so much for awareness), so at the moment I guess it's you.”

I am in good company, though. The other popular answer was Susan B. Anthony (Confused1983, NCFlyer3753, CdtMcCarthy05).

Cigaretteroutine gave a traditional answer, citing feminists who pioneered the movement, but first had to crack a somewhat antagonistic joke: “the one who gets put in her place in the kitchen after losing her inspiration.”

The choices these men made crossed national and disciplinary borders.

Magefire23 picked Shagrat al-Durr, explaining who she was:

“Shagrat al-Durr was a powerful figure during the Crusade of Louis IX, becoming an amazing strategic general and breaking many of the paradigms about Muslim women in the middle ages. While her reign was short, due to the stigma of her femininity, she ruled over her son from behind the throne, bringing Muslim Egypt great prosperity.”

Drachefly presented this anecdote: “Not so very long ago, there was this village in Africa, in which the men who intended to work all day generally ended up at the saloon some time around 11:00 AM, spending all their money, and not finishing their day's work. One woman decided this was untenable, recruited all the village wives, sabotaged the saloon, and hid the family cash reserves from their husbands so it couldn't be spent selfishly. It did not take very long for things to look up for everyone.”

Salamander wondered, “Does Ada Lovelace count? I don't think she was exactly a woman's rights advocate... Well, she's often hailed as the first programmer. More accurately, she debugged the first computer program. In a field that's often considered male-only, or at least male-dominated, even today, she made major strides. At the very beginning of the field, too.”

AxelFendersson followed the Susan B. Anthony trend by pointing out, “In 1897, Millicent Fawcett founded the National Union of Women's Suffrage, and pretty much started the organised [sic] Suffragette movement in Britain.” Same cause, different nation.

Hollowgraham selected a favorite professor, and Swingerzetta chose his sister; both of these women were noted for both their dedication to the cause and their moderation in practicing it.

Feminism has a reputation, of course, and I asked the men I interviewed to name the historical and current causes they most associated with feminism: 15 of the 25 men interviewed considered suffrage to be the historical issue of note. Swingerzetta commented, “That’s crazy, not letting someone vote because they weren’t born a man.”

The most commonly cited current issue was abortion, with 13 men naming it. Equality in the workplace or equality of income was also popular, with six mentions (Magefire23 and Confused1983 cited both).

Two men discussed the burqa: Cigaretteroutine, and Rysto, who considered, “I remember back during the (NATO) invasion of Afghanistan, many feminist groups were loudly decrying the treatment of women in Afghanistan. And so often it seemed to come down to the burqa. It was just horrible that women were forced to wear it, in fact, it was barbaric. But when reporters talked to Afghani women, it wasn't the burqa they spoke about. They wanted equal access to education. They wanted the right to vote. Too many feminists had been so focused on the burqa, which was really just a symbol of the oppression, that they couldn't see the real issues.”

Theory is well and good, but my next two questions related to practice: the men themselves and their love lives. I asked the men I interviewed what their feelings are on dating feminists. Most had no qualms, some (NCFler3753, PaRadish5, Hollowgraham) accepting the idea easily without even elaborating. Some considered it a plus: Confused1983 (who is currently dating a feminist), Arcosh, Drachefly (“Not that that kept me from marrying someone who claims not to be”), angrysunbird, JonMW, and Robot_Ron. Others had trouble with the idea: CdtMcCarthy05 admitted, “I’d be uncomfortable because I wouldn’t know how to act, whether they would like traditional chivalry or what they expect from a guy,” while Richard noted, “I honestly want a girl, who although is independent - that I could still spoil from time to time. I can't imagine a feminist allowing me to buy candy and flowers for no reason.” Treesrule14 was against the idea of dating a feminist, but as an aside added “(watch me marry one).”
Many were indifferent, or welcomed the idea as long as the feminist was not too extreme: Airedale260, FreeTheKickball9, Morand, Cigaretteroutine (who admitted he’d make jokes like the one cited earlier to “irk” the feminist in question), Salamander, Swingerzetta, Rysto, AxelFendersson, Crake, and Ruan all gave some variation of this answer. Magefire23 pointed out: “I’ve done it before. I’ll probably do it again. Hell, I would have asked you out, had the situation been different.”

Mooney’s answer was unique: “I'm against it. Note: I'm against dating period. I am a bachelor for life.”

ScandiaMaxie brought a different perspective: “I can’t date women of any kind since I am gay. Befriending them are [sic] all right with me. I have yet to meet a guy who is truly feminist in the whole sense, but I don’t see any problem dating a feminist man. In fact, it will be even interesting to date one.”

Finally, I asked the men if they considered themselves to be feminist or pro-feminist, and why. Though some thought the question was either-or (rather than yes-or-no), and a few were uncertain about the meaning of the term “pro-feminist,” all answered candidly.

Again, most men who considered themselves feminist or pro-feminist reminded me that this stance does not include extremism. NCFlyer3753 looked at it pragmatically: “Somewhere down the road I'm gonna [sic] have to work with a woman, live with a woman, and love a woman. If that's going to be the case, then they should be as happy as they want to be. Besides, women are humans just as men are.” PaRadish5 was a bit more tenuous: “I consider myself a feminist, but I don't think that I would be considered a feminist, because abortion has become the litmus test. My main complaint with contemporary feminism is its seeming equation with being pro-life and being misogynistic. I’m for equal rights, equal pay, education, all these things, but I don't think I could get past the door. I mean, feminism equates being pro-life with being misogynistic.”

Overall, 13 men gave answers that could best be summed up by a quote from Rysto: “I advocate equal rights for all people, including women. I'd say that would make me pro-feminist.”

Those who did not consider themselves feminist or pro-feminist, or who considered themselves anti-feminist, cited unfair victimization of men (FreeTheKickball9, Mooney) or the perceived completion of the goals of feminism (Cigaretteroutine, Treesrule14).

CdtMcCarthy05 mentioned a controversial topic currently debated on the national level when he said, “Advancing women's rights is not high on my agenda, and I frankly don’t think it is necessary anymore because even though many say women earn less money than men, the reality is that in the same professions women earn as much or more than men and the reason for the disparity is that men are more likely to do hazardous jobs and high demand jobs. I think it's the nature of the job that men generally have more of the mindset or physical capacity than women, men are generally better at math and science where as women are generally better at verbal skills; many of the high demand jobs today require skills in math and science.”

Morand, though stating that he is pro-feminist, expressed a somewhat pessimistic view: “I'm all about getting your fair share, and I think it would be great if men and women were equal, I just don't ever see it happening. Because men would feel emasculated. And men will vehemently defend their masculinity. Deep down we want to be in charge, it’s the male instinct. If we aren't we feel uncomfortable and less sure of ourselves. I'm guessing it’s just a byproduct of the animal days. We attract mates by being large and dominate, if we're not large and dominate we feel like shit. It’s a weird idea but I can't think of any other way to express it. It’s just a guy thing, we have to be the breadwinner, it provides a deep sense of satisfaction.”

The men were then given the opportunity to add any thoughts on the subject. Most declined, but a few had more to say.

Airedale260 pointed out a common feeling among the men interviewed: “I have a bit of a problem with Feminazi types...because they go overboard & discriminate themselves. But that's like republicans vs. fascists. Republicans in general aren't bad (despite what some may think), but the fascists take a conservative ideology to the extreme...and any extreme is dangerous, regardless of what it is. Or Democrats vs. communists, if you prefer.”

JonMW complained about an instance of what he considered anti-male sexism: “At the school that I go to, there has recently appeared a girls-only meeting on the subject of sex-ed with Free Pizza. I ask you - is this fair? I'm on the verge of lodging a complaint. I realize that this is an important subject for teenage girls, but Free Pizza really rubs me the wrong way.”

Arcosh pondered the case of feminists resenting men who hold doors: “I can understand it. It simply is a form of machismo. It fits very well to more traditionally male attitudes like ‘I don't need a patch of such a small scratch,’ ‘I can find the way without asking someone,’ ‘I am not using any not muscle powered tools if I can avoid it,’ and so on. I do expect to be told politely about such quirks, unless due to a common history I would have been supposed known about it. But otherwise I have no problem with it and I am willing to honour [sic] that wish.”

As an interviewer, I found it difficult at times to keep from opening a debate with my subjects. As Confused1983 pointed out at one point, feminism is not a monolith. Despite what several men suggested, feminism is not finished. Certain opinions about wage inequality struck me. Several men admitted to being ignorant to many feminist issues, and I had to fight the impulse to provide them with information. I look forward to continuing some of these conversations once I no longer have to worry about tainting my data.

I do admire that many, even most, of the men are sympathetic. The attitude of wanting equality for all, not just across gender lines but also across ethnic, racial, class, and religious lines, resonates with contemporary feminism. At the same time, the biggest complaint of the anti-feminists was that women are already equal – a case of misinformation, perhaps, but certainly not one of sexism.
The men stated again and again their disapproval of extremism and their concerns about sexism being turned toward them. While in retrospect I wish I had asked each participant’s age, location, and ethnicity (with answering being optional on these questions), I found that the desire for respect and equality crosses gender lines more easily than perhaps either side suspects, and this common thread, combined with an increase in the availability of information, could easily lead to even further progress being made.

Thanks to my participants:
“Airedale260”
“FreeTheKickball9”
“Magefire23”
“Confused1983”
“Morand”
“Cigaretteroutine”
“NCFlyer3753”
“CdtMcCarthy05”
“PaRadish5”
“Salamander”
“Mooney”
"ScandiaMaxie"
"Richard”
"Hollowgraham"
“Swingerzetta”
“Arcosh”
“Rysto”
“AxelFendersson”
“Drachefly”
“angrysunbird” [sic]
“Crake”
“JonMW”
“Ruan”
“Treesrule14”
“Robot_Ron”

Pseudonyms were generally based on the individual’s AIM Screen Name, LiveJournal handle, or sluggy.net message board identification. In a few cases, the men requested different pseudonyms. The pseudonyms were used to give the participants proper credit while maintaining their anonymity. Copies of this paper will be made available online to them.

<-- Some answers may be found in the past.

Some questions have yet to be asked. -->